The Mosque Debate and The Religion Concept
If anyone’s still interested in the Great Mosque Debate, I have a shocking new revelation…
In the beginning of this conversation, I was criticized for basing my position on emotions, rather than facts. To answer this charge, I immersed myself in the foundations of Islam. True, I was just looking for ways to dig up damning, truthful evidence; Facts, that would defend my original stated hatred for this Mosque. But I was going to be fair about it. I ignored the easy crimes of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban and Hamas….
No – I was intent on going after regular Islam. I wanted to prove that this so-called peaceful religion was run by money-grubbing frauds and was nothing more than a supremacist cult that used physical and psychological terror to stifle human creativity, stagnate intellectual evolution, and reduce its followers to suicidal zombies….And all in the name of Allah…
But what I eventually discovered was something far more different than I could have ever expected. So unexpected for me, and so shocking in fact, that the Truth has caused me to change my own religion….
So, if you are a happy, peaceful Muslim – you don’t even need to read this because you already know. I just hope you do the right thing. And I hope that you get to rebuild the Mosque and that it’s within safe walking distance of ground zero. I hope it has colorful mosaics, good security and good acoustics and comfortable floor mats….
For me, my old prejudice, and this argument, has officially ended. I’ve heard the last sacred word I ever need to hear.
This new religious conversion of mine was sudden and emotional. I know I’m not the first person who ever changed their religion, but I never saw it coming in this way. I had succeeded in gathering all the factual evidence I needed to prove, unequivocally, that Islam was the world’s greatest running con-job.
And here’s how it looked…
I started with Mohammad, of course. And of course it was easy to ridicule an illiterate 40 year-old gangster who got thrown out of Mecca for acting delusional. He said he had passed out in the desert when the angel Gabriel choked him and then spoke to him, and told him he was to be the new prophet. These are historical facts. There is also little question that he did a lot of beheading and married a 9 year-old girl. The debate on the blogs is, did he “personally” decapitate an entire tribe of Jews, or just allow it to happen? And, did he have sex with his wife on their wedding day, or wait till she was 17?
Hey, in the History of The World, it’s good to be da Prophet…..
My faith was challenged when I read the Koran. My faith in reading comprehension, that is. I didn’t understand a word of it. Apparently, no-one else has either, because they’ve been debating it for a thousand years. Does it sanctify killing or not? Depends on how you want to read it, or who you ask. It’s still being debated how many wings are on an angel, how many wives you can have, and what kind of food you can eat. I heard that one passage was interpreted to say, “Thou shalt not speak the number (3). (3) is the number thou shall not speak.” This translation may not be 100% true, but it’s a pretty good example of the Koran, and a good scene in a Monty Python movie……
I had a list of 48 Muslim nations. The top six were doing quite well selling their oil. The bottom six Muslim nations weren’t doing so well. In fact, all 84 million of them were at the bottom of the world. But at least their messed up governments help provide plots for more good movies. Sierra Leone gave us Blood Diamond. And Afghanistan will surely bring more than Hurt Locker…
I started a list of great Muslim inventions. I had heard they invented zero, but I didn’t get the joke. Their list of inventions went back a thousand years, but they were all a thousand years old. I swear I could not find any recent ones. And then I find out that the number zero was invented in India by Hindus. Thanks for nothing……
But that didn’t seem right, so I made a list of Nobel Prize winners who were admitted Muslims. Since 1901, I found nine. One was killed by terrorists. One WAS a terrorist. One was stabbed in the neck by a terrorist. Three of the others received death threats. And four of these awards were for Peace Prizes. Admitted atheists supposedly have won 50.…
It was here that I realized my religion was changing, and I was afraid to accept it. In order to be certain what I was doing was right, I needed to compare other religions to Islam……
I started with the youngest religion, Scientology. Like Mohammad, L. Ron Hubbard had multiple wives, and he liked little teenage girls to help shower and dress him. But wily ole Elron didn’t stoop to robbing caravans or marrying rich widows the way Mohammad did. No, he just promised the little old ladies he could “clear” their minds (and bank accounts) of all illness and grief. You only need two words to describe this tightly wrapped bullshit burrito – Tom Cruise……
Next in line, was Mormonism, a word with an extra “M”…..Joseph Smith received his great awakening and prophet status from TWO angels while he struggled alone in the desert. He liked what he heard about the food restrictions and multiple young wives. And he loved the idea of a steady supply of “offerings.”
Next comes Hinduism. With 28 separate gods, they took religion and raised it to South Park levels of brazen absurdity. They offered a used car lot of deities. Gods with four faces or eight arms or elephant heads — they got it all, including sacred cows and scriptures like, “Trying to understand, will block all understanding…” What a cosmic joke. You’d think with all this, the Hindus would be too confused to ever get violent. But they manage. They have their terrorists. Hell, they killed freakin’ GHANDI for god’s sake…!!
Then there’s Judaism. Poor Moses, lost alone in the desert, when suddenly God appears and gives him some commandments and tells him he’s the new prophet. (Are we noticing a pattern here?) Difference is, no multiple wives in Judaism. That seems on the surface like a newbie religion oversight, but it’s understandable if you’ve ever lived with one Jewish woman. Oy vay! Over time, there ends up being 613 commandments, but most of them just involve candles and holy holidays and festivals and again, many food restrictions. (What’s up with the food?) I couldn’t understand the Torah, but I knew there was terrorism in it, after already trying to read the old testament. Yeah, the Jews could be violent. They killed Jesus, for Christ’s sake!!
Yes, it was now time to look hard at my own hero — Jesus Christ…..
I’d never really looked hard at Christianity. Now I had to, and it felt weird. It’s sorta like if you’ve been married for a long while and one night you just stand there staring at your wife while she’s sleeping and you love her and all that but it suddenly dawns on you that you two are only together by the most random of chances and but for a single missed phone call or a bad hair day this woman you love so much wouldn’t be there and it could be any of a thousand different women that you’d be staring at and loving and you realize that you’re seeing her, for real, for the very first time….
I worshipped Christ because I was born into his familiar embrace. Deep down, I’d always been marginally aware of the little inconsistencies and trivial contradictions, but it was easy to ignore it the same way you’d ignore your wife’s little weight gain and growing laugh lines. You love from your heart, not your head. But my wife never asked me to hate anyone…
My attacking the Mosque revealed to me the fundamental insanity of not just Islam, but also the crippling embrace that all religions – including my own – place on human ambition. I could gladly suspend judgment for my wife’s little foibles, but to continue to surrender my critical thinking skills just so I can say I still support the religion I was born in, one that is just every bit as illogical and potentially dangerous as all the rest…I just can’t do it…..
Mohammad didn’t talk to god, and Mary was not a virgin. The scriptures are all hard to understand because they are intentionally ambiguous. They were not written by God. They were written by men for the sole purpose of controlling other men in any conceivable situation. All religions are frightened of being exposed as the fundamentalist, and fundamentally silly inventions of ancestors. The promise of religion was to inspire the greatest ambitions of human potential, but everywhere I look, I see religion enslaving minds and crushing spirits under centuries of self-sustaining myth built on flimsy tradition…
With this in mind, I officially renounce my faith in the Christian religion. I will still love Jesus as a man, but not as the son of God, and not as the magician that other men made him out to be. No more divine intervention, and no more con-job. I no longer hate Islam, but I’ll be glad when it, and all other religions, become the obscure and forgotten footnotes of a new human history. I look forward to a time when we can embrace the freedom we were born into, instead of the faith, and the truth we were born into, instead of the tradition. I will remain a Deist in my heart, but I refuse to worship the crumbling Stonehenge statue of an irrelevant man-made god…
A wise man said this Mosque is a lose-lose proposition…It is, and it isn’t. Perhaps this controversy will motivate others to look more closely at who the real enemy is. The enemy that can only exist by feeding on guilt and submission, and by sponsoring division and hatred. Organized religion is the real terrorist. Today, I am losing my religion…
Thank you, Mosque, for helping resurrect tolerance and freethinking.
Posted: August 24th, 2010 under Feature, Original.
Tags: Politics
Comments
Comment from Jake
Time August 24, 2010 at 1:43 pm
(As a note: I do not know you, there was a link placed on a website I frequent that led me here)
Well, as a Christian who considers himself fairly steeped in both Jewish and Christian tradition, I want to personally challenge the decision you made in the following ways:
1) I want you to consider that, amidst all this, you quoted no scripture to support your claims. Can you show me where God-mandated wars occurred in any parts of the bible? I know of only one, and if you happen to cite that single one, I’ll explain why I feel it was justified.
2) Has it occurred to you that there’s potential you weren’t actually following, to the letter, the commandments of Christ? I’m fairly young in my time as a Christian (2 years, or so), and I am as well a fairly young person (only 24 years old), but in my time investigating the bible, I’ve found it’s precepts based on peace and love. I fully agree, however, that most Christians follow the antithesis of this practice, but that brings me to my point. Those who don’t follow the words of Christ in, for example John 13:35, Mark 12:31, or even Christs dictum to be in the world and not of it in John 17, follow an incorrect subset of Christianity based on hate and fear. It sounds like you followed this religion.
As a Christian, I can say confidently I don’t mind where any practitioners of Islam build their Mosques. I would like to challenge you to consider that you may have thrown away the greatest gift God gave you in those moments of insight, the ability to realize where you’ve broken free from his will, and him sovereignly opening your eyes to the previous hatred and anger that drove your feelings against the Mosque, and dare I even say your walk with him.
Comment from Bob is gone
Time August 24, 2010 at 2:01 pm
If you are rational and analyze ancient texts more objectively, you will see the truth that it is all mythology and philosophy.
You have done just that after your analysis.
Good on you, mate.
Comment from Jordan
Time August 24, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Jake you’re deluded and can’t even see it.
Forget there’s anybody in your head but you for a minute, is it a coincidence children are born into the same religion as their parents and that it always happens to be the right one?
Comment from Danno Davis
Time August 24, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Welcome to clear thought! The air will smell a lot fresher.
Comment from Andrew S.
Time August 24, 2010 at 2:30 pm
I’m not going to say that Mormonism is something you should believe in, but I had a little chuckle reading your summary paragraph of it because it is like *nothing* I’ve ever heard. I mean, I’m trying to think of all of the many versions of the first vision stories, including the official church one, but I just can’t figure out where you got the idea of a desert, lol.
Comment from Jake
Time August 24, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Jordan,
My family is not religious. Also, that thought process doesn’t hold up to the scrutiny of objective truth. Let me give you an example.
During World War II, it stands to reason those born in the US, for the most part, grew up thinking what the Nazis were doing was wrong. In Germany, however, children were told that what the Nazi government was doing was right. It’s true that their up bringing dictated what they (for the most part, some on both sides broke away from this) believed, however, only one side was objectively right in what they were doing.
Sure, the German children could have been brought up believing what they were doing was the ‘good and right thing’, but that doesn’t make it, objectively, the good or right thing. The same is true with every religion. Whether or not we’re raised being told which is right and which is wrong, that doesn’t effect which is truly and actually right, and the others which then are wrong.
I encourage everyone to critically examine all religious texts, most of all the one they profess to be true, because unless you can approach your holy script with confidence that it meets the rigors of intellectual criticizing, then you won’t maintain your faith.
Comment from Brad
Time August 24, 2010 at 2:36 pm
First of all, congratulations, freethinker. Coming to a conclusion of such clarity, on your own, is the best feeling in the world.
@Jake
Your questions are too loaded. 1) Engaging in this debate would require an active disregard for the “god-mandated” wars that were recorded outside of religious texts. Simply because these wars occured after the christian bible was written doesn’t make them any less divine-inspired as they were claimed at conception. 2) The fact that you pointed out the hypocritical messages of the different parts of the bible shows your blind faith in a book whose lacking in credibility. You wouldn’t believe a school history book that said “Christopher Columbus first discovered America” and then on the next page “the vikings discovered America”. No, you would question the credibility of that textbook and invsestigate the facts for yourself, if you cared. And before you reference the bible to verify its own credibility, rediscover the definition of a fallacy.
Comment from freethinker
Time August 24, 2010 at 2:37 pm
thanks, notsure ( love the name )
Jake, you don’t need to know me to challenge my statements, and i respect your friendly interest. (1) I never said god mandated a war; But I assume you mean Jehovah’s order to slaughter the Canaanites. It’s in the Bible. And historically, it’s probably accurate. So, either god told (allowed) them to do it, or the Bible is a man-made work of artistic scriptures.
(2) I’m sorry, son, but you can’t discern from what I wrote, exactly how good of a Christian I really was. Yes, as a human being i felt hate and fear, but i never tried to use the words of Jesus to define or defend my hatred. Jesus preached love, not hate. And now he’s dead, but his message, because it was pure, lives on.
I’m sorry, Jake, but your God doesn’t speak to me, and neither does Zoroaster or Vishnu or Black Elk. Neither do they leave me carved tablets or miracle signs. I prayed for them. Nothing happened. It would be really cool to have an Almighty mom and dad in the front seat, driving the car and handling all serious decisions. I screw up half the things i touch….And i did believe, at one time, because it was easy and comforting. But there comes a time for a man, and a culture, and a nation, to grow up
Comment from eric
Time August 24, 2010 at 2:44 pm
I always recommend reading “The history of God” by Karen Armstrong. Takes a strong, scholarly look at the history of the three Abrahamic religions. You’ll really dig it…
Comment from Christian
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:02 pm
@Jake – Do you mean god gave him the gift of free will? I am a staunch, even militant atheist, so god shouldn’t give me anything. The concept is childish at best, and I will openly say “FU” to god. So he better not give me anything. Yet I seem to have plenty of free will- that’s all I have in fact- as well as the ability to apply logical conjecture to any statement I hear or read. So I had that gift my entire life- I think it’s clearer to say “religion will take AWAY your ability to freely think” yes?
Andrew S. – Yes I think he got confused. Joseph Smith was the one who claimed he “found” the tablets in a cave but unfortunately no one else ever laid eyes on them. He went down in a hail of gunfire correct? I think next to scientology, Mormons wis the “What are they smoking?” award.
Comment from Jake
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Brad:
I can do all sorts of things in the name of religions, and in the name of YHWH. This hardly means that it’s his will, thus, I have no compulsion in saying every war that happened outside the context of it being God ordained, and that ordination being recorded in the bible, is at best a fraud. An outlandish example: Someone I meet today punches me in the face and says ‘Brad from the internet told me to do that! It was his will!’ In truth, you may hold no such intentions, and it would be wrong of me to hold that man’s actions against you, would it?
As well, in regard to your second point, I believe the entire bible is the unfolding drama of God’s plan to rescue humanity. During this drama, we see two maximal characteristics of God come into play. His perfect love, and his perfect justice. I believe it’s possible (for God) to be both perfectly loving, and perfectly just, and thus I find your claim of hypocrisy to fall short. Unless, of course, I’m misunderstanding what you view in the bible the be hypocritical.
Freethinker:
You’re right, I was referring to God’s mandates to kill the Canaanites. And I believe it is historically accurate. The defense I would like to offer is this:
Taking my opinion outside of God’s right to judge who he judges, the way he judges them, I’d like to consider the actions of the Canaanites on a purely human scale. These were people who ritualisticlly slaughtered children, on a frequent basis, to Baal and the Asherah’s. Their customs also included involuntary rape of children as young as 5 years old, and sacrificing outsiders. Is there a point in time, in all of humanity, where actions such as these should be allowed to continue?
In regards to your second point, you’re right, I did falsely determine the type of Christian you were, and I apologize for that. Besides that, there seems nothing to debate in this section of text. It’s unfortunate, however, to hear you say that being a theist is easier than being an atheist. From all I’ve experienced, it’s the exact opposite.
Comment from Russ
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Looks like you took the blue pill, Freethinker.
Welcome to the real world :)
There is much more to see, but you are well on your way.
Comment from Christian
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:13 pm
Again @Jake – I think you fundamentally miss the scientific point what people are aethists. There is NO religious text that lives up to intellectual scrutiny. That’s why people who are free thinkers don’t believe them. Let’s take your bible: The earth is 6,000 years old. From an intellectual perspective- Then explain the things we’ve since discovered that are much, much older. Fossils buried in a mountain. The bible has no explanation, because they weren’t aware of these things. There is no way to logically argue the earth only 6000 years old without blindly reciting the bible. Events we know about- mass extinctions, volcano eruptions, etc. They’ve found humanoid remains- not too mention a frozen wooly mammoth far older than that. And the ridiculous fable about Noah’s ark- though even strict conservatives seem to brush that one of and say it was “metaphorical” (another point- most christians seem to follow only the parts of the bible they want to, and ignore others).
If I were you I’d certainly be questioning my loyalty. Perhaps you should look at scientology, at least their bible has aliens.
Comment from Jake
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:13 pm
Christian:
I beg to differ, my God causes the sun to rise on the good and the evil, the righteous and the unrighteous (as a note, I’d like to clarify I am not by any means calling myself righteous. I am, in truth, the worst of all sinners, and everything I’ve been given is as much of an unearned gift as everything you’ve been given). I believe God gives good gifts to all his children, but the best gift is reserved for those who choose to ask for it.
I would also disagree on the claim you made that religion robs our ability to think freely. I think, much like everything else in this world, it has the capability to do so, but does not inherently rob us of that capability.
Comment from Russ
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:17 pm
actually.
it was the redpill.
mahbad :D
Comment from freethinker
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:18 pm
Yes, andrew, you are correct. I mixed the details of two events. in my defense, i was working from old memory on that one. Uncle D. was a Mormon who at one point had a wife and four kids, and a second wife on the side. Also, I have an ex-brother in law who left the faith with bad feelings.
But when the events themselves are both equally implausible, it doesn’t really change the equation
Comment from Jake
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:19 pm
Christian (once more):
I believe young earth creationists (those who think the world is 6,000 years old) are silly. Please, don’t group me in with them. There’s no reason why science and the bible can not work hand in hand.
As for the flood, I hardly believe it to be metaphorical. I am unsure what exactly I believe on that. There’s the possibility it was only a localized flood, but then again, nearly every culture around during that time has a flood account (check out this website here, seems like that have a list that compares and contrasts all the different cultural flood accounts http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html)
Comment from Cylinsier
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Jake, I have two questions for you.
1 – Why do you believe your specific denomination of Christianity is correct and not any other religion?
2 – How do you objectively define good and evil?
Comment from Russ
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:30 pm
@ jake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth#Hypotheses_of_origin_of_flood_legends
All things are merely coincidence. Nothing may be as it seems, especially when history was written loosely and only kept when kinds and queens deemed it appropriate.
Comment from ed
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:32 pm
science’s logic can kick religious’ logic’s ass any day of the week.
Comment from Christian
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Jake, I guess the part I have trouble with is that I see absolutely no way science and creationism can coexist. Creationists say they can- but they do that by using pseudo science. No real scientist can look at the outlandish claims in the bible and find anything plausible about them. I will say this: I do not doubt there was a human being named Jesus Christ- I do however believe the stories about him are clearly embellished and false. The earliest known written bible, the Codex Sinaiticus was written some 400 years after his death. Hardly a first hand account. Also, I am not denying flooding at any point, but the bible describes a flood that is completely contradicted by science (and logic).
I don’t blame people for wanting faith and guidance- that is human. I however choose to guide myself through personal growth and understanding, and not through a belief in fairy tales or false prophets. The Bible is not providing any insight out of the ordinary (Morals are a product of social evolution, not religion), and in some cases it causes misguided judgment against other human beings. Gay rights and abortion are not issues atheists get up in arms about.
Comment from Jake
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Cylinsier:
1a) I am nondenominational. I believe Christians should take a grammatical/historical based approach on our study method (more info here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical-grammatical_method ) but besides that, I believe very few things about Christianity are ‘staples that must be maintained to keep true with the original belief’, and those are:
- That Jesus, fully man and fully God, came to earth, lived a perfect life, and died on the cross in order to offer redemption humanity, and was raised 3 days later
- That Christian’s are called to share the above stated message with the word, and thusly are called to ‘make disciples of all nations.’
1b) I believe Christianity is correct, and not any other religion, because Christianity offers the most comprehensive overview of the world at large, the issues with humanity, and the means of redemption. I find that other religions are contradictory and are unable to reconcile these contradictions with itself, or go blatantly against (in a non-metaphorical means) science, or just known facts of the world at large. As well, I had a fairly typical conversion experience, completed with heightened emotions and the such, but I also recognize my emotions and what I feel are often not in line with what is actually true, so the feelings based aspect is hardly the most important of these reasons.
2) This should be a much shorter answer, thankfully. I feel bad making these long, drawn out posts, qualifying everything. Either way, I believe ‘good’ is having your thoughts and deeds in line with God’s will. I believe evil is not doing that.
Comment from Jake
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Gonna bow out for the moment guys, will respond when I get back home tonight. Thanks for the awesome discussion, everyone. It’s always really enjoyable to do stuff like this. :)
Comment from Cylinsier
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Jake
1) Nondenominational means you disagree with the way all other denominations of Christianity approach worship. What is the reason for this? There must be something about denominational worship that you find at odds with proper worship. And if there is nothing, why not simply choose a denomination out of convenience so you have a place to worship?
1b) In what way is Christianity more comprehensive than, say, Sikhism or Gnosticism? And surely you are aware of the myriad inconsistencies within Christianity. They are well documented and thousands of years have been spent in discussion over reconciling those contradictions to no avail, as with all religions. I have to take issue outright with choosing Christianity over other faiths because it is not contradictory when that is simply not factually true. Christianity’s disagreements with scientific understanding are also well-documented. The age of the Earth, the methods of creationism, and the ability of a human being to have superhuman powers are the obvious examples.
I have to question whether or not you gave yourself the opportunity to have the same emotional experience with other faiths as you did with Christianity when you converted. Did you attend services at a Mosque, Temple, Synagogue, or Shrine? Did you converse in depth with their acolytes and ask questions about their philosophies so you could make a comparison? Or was your experience with Christianity simple a conversion of convenience, one made when you felt particularly open to the idea of a God and that just happened to be the first or easiest option available to you?
2) But how do you define what God’s will is?
Comment from Jim Etchison
Time August 24, 2010 at 3:58 pm
I respect your openness, and your conclusions. Nicely done sir. The light on this side of the mountain is even brighter …
Comment from freethinker
Time August 24, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Dear Jake,
Could you please do me a favor, and NOT have your mind completely made up before you begin a fair discussion. ? First listen, then analyze internally, then make a balanced decision, then offer a critique. You’ve been skipping the first 3 steps.
Now, listen, kid, okay ? I never said it was easier being a theist than an atheist. I don’t even think the word theist has any practical applications. And I’m NOT an atheist.
I’m a deist. Same as Thomas Jefferson and a majority of the founding fathers.
….Are you still listening..?
I’m not trying to turn anyone away from Christ. I still worship the words he wrote, and i strive to incorporate his philosophy into my own life…. ( Now please allow me to do my Wizard of Oz Scarecrow impression…) I won’t try to convert anyone, because I have nothing to convert them into. I won’t condemn any particular religion, because i think they’re all equally detrimental. And I’ll never lie to you, because I’m not selling anything
Comment from Mike
Time August 24, 2010 at 4:14 pm
Religion and religious texts really aren’t about the objective facts outlined in their respective holy books.
The religions are a social construct which unifies the purpose and feeling of a group of people who would likely be unable to associate and cooperate so widely if they did not have a feeling of shared belief. This bond of core shared belief is what religion is really about – it goes down to the basic need of every human to feel connected to fellow humans.
The holy books themselves represent a story that has been re-told millions of times by thousands of generations. You can’t expect it to read like a VCR manual. Humanity has grown and changed in scope and degree of intelligence over the last two thousand years – and much of what was cutting edge thought now seems like archaic garbage. It has importance and meaning as it contains the experiences of individuals who have spent a lifetime trying to distill the indescribable into the written word.
Faith is an entirely different animal. Faith is something separate from the church, separate from the books which attempt describe it. Though both the books and the religions are based on faith, faith itself is belief in the truth something that cannot be objectively proven, yet you simply “know.” It doesn’t matter about inconsistencies – I’m sure you know what it is having been a Christian for a long time.
What atheists commonly miss is that all of these things have great value, both in the modern and historical sense.
Thus I think you have made a mistake in renouncing your faith. There are so many different kinds of religions out there, just because one sect of the religion makes a statement, doesn’t mean that it represents the entirety of it. Just as the KKK does not speak for all white people.
Comment from Cylinsier
Time August 24, 2010 at 4:23 pm
“What atheists commonly miss is that all of these things have great value, both in the modern and historical sense. ”
I disagree with that statement. Atheists do not seek to erase the existence of religion or faith from history, they simply do not believe in those things. They still study them, often more so than believers, explicitly because of their literary and historic value.
Comment from freethinker
Time August 24, 2010 at 4:56 pm
Mike, thanks for your well written words, and i guess i must assume that what you are saying represents objective fact as you interpret it.
I agree that humans feel a basic need to be connected to other humans. I hate going to the movies alone. And religion’s greatest potential is to unite all of humanity..?
Whoa, buddy. That’s quite a leap. i really do wish that your dream was realistic. But in order to achieve it, there could only be 1 (ONE) religion. And if you dare to affirm that separate religions can co-exist side-by-side in harmony, well, then why haven’t they.?
Separate religions are defined by separate texts. The texts describe ancient practices that are no longer relevant, ‘garbage’, as you say…. I couldn’t agree more. So why should I keep that VCR manual, sir (probably a BAD analogy) when my neighbor has no ass to covet.? Especially when that ridiculous antique text is helping to destroy any of the harmony we both want?
I have nothing against faith. It’s a beautiful and personal thing. But i’m not sure we agree about what it’s good for. You say it’s separate from the church ? Separate from the texts that define the church.? Then, sir, what do i need the church for ?
You seem to place great historical worth in respecting the inherent worth of continued tradition, regardless of it’s functional utility. And, again, i agree. But that’s what museums are for, not systems of social constructs.
Again, i’m NOT an atheist. Nor do i have a beef with any christian sect
Comment from tontonsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Well, freethinker i’m fully aligned with your thoughs, and I think when people say they’re having “faith”, it’s good to say in what they believe..
I still can’t understand how any man having some knowledge of science and knowing a little bit of history could still believe in any scripture written by human being more than 2000 years ago, knowing that:
- only the winners write the “history”
- and human being seeking power in all of any country’s history have welcomed religion as a powerful mean of keeping people under control
How can people still believe in irrational stuff written by people 2000 years ago? I mean, if any one of them would have written that Jesus came down of his UFO to share bread & wine…? We would worship today any man seeing some bright light in the sky..?
I do believe, and I do have faith:
- faith that our world cannot be just “it and that’s all period”.. there must be something we cannot quite catch right now (I mean, we learn everyday), or else all of this looks pretty pointless
- and faith in peace, love, empathy as a way to live our life and understand the meaning of all this
Cheers
Comment from Mr Stuff
Time August 24, 2010 at 6:54 pm
@tontonsonic: I agree with you, for the most part. But at the end, when you admit that you cling to the idea that “there must be something else” because it would seem hopeless otherwise, well I was kinda disappointed. I mean, you know reality doesn’t depend on whether we find it hopeless or not, right? Even if reality was that we were all tortured until we died, and nobody had a good day, ever, IF it were true… it would still be true, and no amount of “this sucks horribly and I wish it were different” would change it. There’s a bit of the brain that’s afraid of that kind of thing, sure, and that’s what we have to overcome when studying reality, because reality doesn’t depend on what we want it to be or what we’re afraid of it being.
The second bit at the end, I totally agree with. So do the AHA and most other humanist organizations, actually, which is why I signed up. Peace and love.
Comment from Toerag
Time August 24, 2010 at 6:58 pm
Congratulations, freethinker!
I put my faith in the inherit goodwill of Man becaus I have proof that it exists. I witness it daily. I don’t want or need ancient books that were written by men with their own motives and agendas then translated dozens of times to the point that their stories don’t resemble the originals to control my faith.
Most people instinctively and inheritly know how to be good people. Don’t be an asshole. Be generous emotionally and with property. Help others regardless of their faith, color, beliefs, etc. If there is an afterlife, that’s how to get to the good side. Not by praying or prostelytizing, nor by judging or being selfish.
Enjoy!
Comment from tontonsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 7:10 pm
@MrStuff:
Mmm I think I would not say “hopeless”, I would more say “pointless”.
I mean, what’s the point of all this is really the unanswered question for me… but as I’m asking myself the question, it’s like any kind of answer would also trigger the same question over & over again.
It’s kind hard to explain the feeling: let’s say alright, we’re human beings made of flesh, we’re born, we poop, we die.
…
My question is: why the f**?
Let’s say the answer is: “we do that until all humans live together in peace and harmony, that’s when the next stage of humanity will be reached and BLAH”
- “well.. ok… but wait a second..? What’s next then?”
- “erhh… what do you mean what’s next?”
- ” why do we have to reach second stage blabla… in what purpose?”
- “errhh dontseewhatyoumean?”
That’s where I’m stuck. any help welcome
Comment from tontonsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 7:20 pm
@Mr Stuff:
example in Toerag’s comment:
“If there is an afterlife, that’s how to get to the good side.”
That’s one goal. But what once you’re on the good side? “let’s play poker!”…?
Comment from Mr Stuff
Time August 24, 2010 at 7:23 pm
@tontonsonic
Well, I think it’s simple, really… because the universe doesn’t, or rather can’t give us a “purpose”, we have to make our own. And from there, I think most people simply ask “What kind of world would I like to live in?” and decide at least part of their purpose is to try to make it that way.
So the answer to your “Why do we have to reach the second stage…” question is “Because we want to. If you want to go do something else, that’s fine too, as long as you don’t hurt anybody. Do whatever makes you happy.”
Comment from tontonsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 7:29 pm
@MrStuff: I’ll drink to that ;-) I like the way you’re putting it
PS: the comic is massive, thanks for sharing
Comment from ಠ_ಠ
Time August 24, 2010 at 7:46 pm
@tontonsonic
I think the problem is that you’re looking to find a ‘purpose’ that isn’t there. Who says that we’re here for any other reason than as an accident? Why are we each so special that we must have some kind of specific ‘purpose’ in life?
As Mr Stuff said, find your own purpose to live. Don’t rely on holy books or scriptures to tell you why you should enjoy life and help others do the same.
Comment from Sweetsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 7:46 pm
@tontonic
It’s simple, but not so simple. I think you have to admit that your conclusion that people simply “create their own meaning” is exactly why people cling to religion. If you say, “Do whatever makes you happy as long as you don’t hurt anyone,” what do you think is gonna happen? Well, look around. People generally do whatever they can get away with, and some do whatever they want even if they can’t get away with it. This is where Christianity, I believe, has the upper hand on secular humanism. It’s much more honest about the depravity and underlying motives of people in general. The “freethinkers” out there claim that religion is the source of the world’s problems so that people are diverted from the bankruptcy of the hedonists’ anthem to “do whatever makes you happy”.
Comment from Sweetsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 7:49 pm
sorry that last comment was @Mr Stuff, not tontonic
Comment from tontonsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 8:04 pm
@ಠ_ಠ : no worries, not looking into scriptures for that :)))
only trying to make my own way… ie, finding my own purpose…
I think the hardest part is to get over with the absurdity of the whole stuff… Looks like MrStuff did succeed to say “it’s absurd, pointless, and I don’t care”… I’m still struggling, but definitly leaning toward what he sayed in his last comment
@sweetsonic: i’m not sure if statistically religions (in general) killed more people or helped more people living happy together… :))
Back in the old ages people killed for Christianism, people converted by force to Christianism…
Comment from efrique
Time August 24, 2010 at 8:05 pm
freethinker:
> I will still love Jesus as a man,
How do you actually know for sure that Jesus actually existed? Because of the references in the new testament, written by people that never saw him, and written decades (at least) after he supposedly lived? Or do you have actual solid and contemporary evidence that he was more than a legend?
I don’t have proof either way – but if he really existed, even if he only did half the nonmiraculous stuff attributed to him, shouldn’t we be awash in corroborating nonbiblical accounts from during the time he lived?
Christian:
> I do not doubt there was a human being named Jesus Christ-
“Christ” is not a name, but a title. It’s merely an anglicized version of the Greek translation (Christus = “the anointed”) of the Hebrew word “Messiah” (Messiach). The guy’s actual name, if he existed at all, would have been something like Yeshua ben Yosef (or he might have been named for his birthplace rather than for his father).
His name wasn’t “Jesus Messiah”. His name was Jesus, and he (along with a bunch of other people around that time) got *called* “Messiah”.
Comment from Sweetsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 8:48 pm
@efrique
From what I’ve read recently, the majority of scholars, even the more left-sided Jesus seminar types, believe that a religious leader named Jesus did indeed exist and that the New Testament has at least some accuracy with regard to his life and ministry. It’s also important to note that we study and casually read dozens of names of historical figures in academic texts where the primary source comes nearly 300-400 years or more after the person lived. Alexander the Great is a good example. So the fact that the earliest Gospel and Paul’s epistles were written a couple decades after Jesus’ crucifixion is really not that unusual and certainly not ruinous to the case for a real Jesus.
Comment from defektiv
Time August 24, 2010 at 9:00 pm
On a personal level, religion does something great for people. It gives them a way to avoid taking responsibility for their actions by simply asking an imaginary man in the sky to forgive them, talking to some man in a costume or performing some trivial ceremony.
That’s a far easier thing to do than manning up to what you’ve done, making it right and adapting your behavior so it doesn’t happen again.
Religion is the easier route to responsibility and accountability. And most people are generally lazy and take the route in life that requires the least amount of effort if at all possible.
Comment from freethinker
Time August 24, 2010 at 9:21 pm
efrique, if i had contemporary evidence that Jesus existed (and yes, i know old latin had no letter …”J”… but let’s not get bogged down in eopardy azz ) I wouldn’t be talking to you guys, I’d be selling it on ebay. I did have a pop tart with an image on it, but it looked more like richard simmons, so i ate it.
Jesus is shorthand for a variety of things. I use it strictly to refer to his philosophical message.
And i still love his message.
(I also love Jeremiah the bullfrog, but I never understood a single word he said)
Comment from Sweetsonic
Time August 24, 2010 at 9:26 pm
@defektiv
Not sure what to say except that your hypothesis doesn’t seem to hold up to scrutiny. It’s one thing to say that you claim responsibility for your actions apart from worship of a deity, but quite another to say that religion encourages laziness.
If we’re still talking about the Christian religion, it’s essence is completely antithetical to everything you just said. For one thing, the reason an imaginary man in the sky forgives them is because they first have to believe that they need forgiveness for wrongdoing – a trait that is lacking in wider society. If anything, religious devotees are much more sensitive to their behaviors and actions towards others precisely because they believe in a higher authority that keeps them accountable.
Whether you believe it or not, adapting your behavior for more than just personal gain is endearing and has power as an idea. It means your more likely to think beyond your own immediate satisfaction and think of others…and of course that is the core of Jesus’ message – death to self and a servant’s mindset.
How many people do you actually hear saying, “Well, I believe in God, so I don’t have to respect you or take responsibility for this.” I’ve grown up in the church most of my life and I’ve never heard anything of the sort.
Again, more power to you for doing your best to adapt and take responsibility without sky daddy watching you, but don’t make unsubstantiated claims against religious folks whose beliefs clearly contradict your assumptions.
Comment from Jeffrey P. Plawrence
Time August 24, 2010 at 11:11 pm
I love your turn from religion to reason. Nicely written and I applaud the lack of fear in your conclusion to include rather than exclude people’s beliefs.
Comment from Drew
Time August 25, 2010 at 12:30 am
Bullshit, you’ll still love jesus as a man? He’s the guy who /invented/ the idea of hell in the Bible. The only begotten son of god said unequivocally that if you don’t believe in him that you deserve eternal torture. There’s no reason to love him as a man or as anything at all and every reason to discard him as irrelevant.
Comment from freethinker
Time August 25, 2010 at 6:52 am
Drew,
Abraham Lincoln told racist jokes. Should the emancipation proclamation be discarded as “irrelevant” ? 99% of what Jesus said is good advice for how to co-exist in civil society.
Because I’m no longer a Christian, I feel free to disagree with what you’re saying, and to
disagree with one thing the man Jesus said.
Second – By denying the supernatural origin of the Bible, I’m admitting that it was written
and edited by men, drawing on memory of oral tradition through several generations. Mistakes could have been made, or original statements intentionally altered – for whatever reason.
Third – Because I’m out of religion, I don’t want or expect anyone to share my respect for
Jesus. No church equals no converts. If you don’t like Jesus, cool, pick another philosopher.
You’re free, 2
Comment from barnman
Time August 25, 2010 at 7:59 am
You said you will look into facts of Islam. That you will actually devote some time in understanding. You think you’ve done that by reading who the Prophet has married, and what a couple of translations in the Koran mean?
A half arsed effort will only get you results of similar quality. I’m not saying you should have a PhD in it, but on the other hand not even a couple of months work will suffice.
You also compared inventions and scientists. You do realise that Islam’s shape nowadays isn’t the best it should be? That’s been the case for quite a while actually, ever since the US ensured that the governments of most resourceful Islamic will serve US interests (http://bit.ly/9kG3S6 ). But when Islam was practiced and understood the way it should, the results were as expected ( http://bit.ly/4Zt1nx , http://www.1001inventions.com/ ).
Comment from barnman
Time August 25, 2010 at 8:00 am
Obviously, many “freethinkers” will applaude you for your “revelation”. All I see is a person who wanted to start a marathon, stumbled on the first rock he came across and went back home.
And finally, just to give you a taste of what real information looks like, here’s a real source with regards to the Prophet marrying a 9 years old : http://bit.ly/aou25b , which also mentions “in many cases, people understand religion according to their own desires and whims”, which seems evidently true.
I really hope you take the time and the effort to complete the marathon you’ve started, and that no matter what blocks your path, you’ll be able to stand up and continue running.
Comment from Cylinsier
Time August 25, 2010 at 8:02 am
Drew,
Non-Biblical history suggests Jesus was probably just an abnormally philosophical Jew. Most of his teachings were the invention of Paul some 3 or 4 hundred years after his death. Attributing much of the words of the Biblical Jesus to the Actual Jesus signifies an illogical belief in the Bible on your part.
Comment from Cylinsier
Time August 25, 2010 at 8:03 am
Barnman, can you prove to me that every single Muslim on the planet has married a 9 year old?
Comment from freethinker
Time August 25, 2010 at 9:02 am
Barnman,
I care nothing for applause. And you can hardly say I went “back home..” What do you mean by that ? I set out to prove that Islam as a religion is a ridiculous collection of ancient myths and magic that when taken seriously, contaminates intellectual development and stagnates social progression. I think I did that. If I failed to prove to you that I hate all Muslims – good, because that was not my intention. And I’m not going to say “I hate Islam,” as a complete sentence, because that can be taken out of context, and anyway blurs the meaning. To paraphrase Archie Bunker, “I’m not prejudiced, I hate all religions equally.”
To maintain logical integrity in my “marathon” I was forced to look in the mirror, and to accept the truth that Christianity shared most, if not all, of the poisonous cult-like tendencies of Islam.
In the spirit of Marc Anthony, the good that religion has done will live on, and the evil should be interred with it’s bones. We should stop praising the worn out symbols of submission, and bury them all in a mass grave – as they have done to so many of us
Comment from barnman
Time August 25, 2010 at 9:36 am
Clinsier, did you even look at the link I posted? Marrying a 9 year old at this day and age goes against Islamic principles (although you my find several who disagree with that, just like everything else).
Barnman, I see you have not addressed any of the points I raised, but I guess that’s ok because your mission was “to prove that Islam as a religion is a ridiculous”. Not to understand what Islam is about, to look at it from a neutral point of view, but to prove that it’s ridiculous. And for that, as I have mentioned before:“in many cases, people understand religion according to their own desires and whims”.
I think this can actually be generalised into by replacing “religion” with “anything”. But if you leave your desires and whims aside, and use good information accompanied by good logic and common sense, then maybe you will prove yourself wrong, just maybe.
Comment from freethinker
Time August 25, 2010 at 11:08 am
Umm…Not to be indiscreet, but you’re “barnman” and I’m “freethinker.” You got ‘em a little switched up there….
Anyway,
i know I’m not the sharpest scimitar in the drawer, but I am having a difficult time understanding your message. I get the feeling you’re unhappy about something I said. Yes, I did set out to prove that, as a religion, Islam is ridiculous. And then, using ruthless logic, proved that my own religion was equally ridiculous.
And it’s not just Islam or Christianity. And it’s not just right now… Since the beginning of history, mankind has had a ruling class of magician priests telling us what to eat, what to drink, what to think, and on and on, and they got away with it because they pretended they were listening to some god, and so we let them treat us like sheep. But we’re not sheep, we’re men, and it’s time we grew up and started thinking for ourselves
Comment from freestinker
Time August 25, 2010 at 11:28 am
Dude Jospeh Smith didn’t have his vision in a desert. Have you seen any deserts in upstate New York? The TWO angels you speak of werern’t angels. It was fucking God and Jesus. Oh and the food thing didn’t happen until AFTER he was dead and the fucking idiots VOTED to make it an extra rule they had to live by. I hate mormonism as much as I hate any other religion but if you’re going to portray yourself as a fact-teller then tell the fucking facts. Now I’ll have to read about hinduism to see if there’s anything I have to unlearn after reading this. I applaud you on your spiritual journey though. Snootchy bootchy!
Comment from barnman
Time August 25, 2010 at 11:34 am
@freethinker
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I am making more sense of the message you are delivering, and I think it has some merit into it, but also a bit of misconception.
Let me start with what I agree with you on. I loathe scholars who spend no time in understanding the religion, and instead “remember” what they were taught and just keep on reproducing that information. This goes against the nature of adaptation, and the nature of carrying on a religion to future generations.
Don’t get me wrong, there are several issues that are very clear and they are not open for re-interpretation (like strictness of not killing an innocent soul, for an example), but also there are many issues that are open for re-interpretation according to the time and place, and many scholars (Muslim and others) are just not able to have this mindset, and they cause their societies and others a lot of suffering because of that. I believe a person (and especially scholars) should approach religion as they would approach a university subject: study it in depth, and then use the grounding basics to formulate opinions.
Comment from barnman
Time August 25, 2010 at 11:35 am
On the other hand, when referring to “we’re not sheep”, that is true.
Islam is a guidance on how to live a proper and balanced life that goes along with human nature. It’s not really treating anyone like “sheep”, as at the end of the day you decide how to live your life.
I mean, if we go to University and we’re asked to follow a certain curricula… does that make us sheep? Surely you can decide that you don’t want anybody to”treat us like sheep” or “tell us” what to do, and you can just study and do what you like but you will have to bear the consequences (which are a lot easier to notice in a university than in life).
Anyways, I wouldn’t want to continue discussing aspects that I believe should be quite obvious, and on that not I hope you success and peace in your life.
Comment from freethinker
Time August 25, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Barnman,
I am now understanding you better, as well. I did not even know you were Muslim, at first. And you
seem like a happy and friendly young person, and if you are satisfied with Islam, than I am also happy for you. But…
Comparing university to religion is like comparing camels to coconuts. Algebra is based on provable facts that never change because of personal opinion. And as you say yourself, the rules of religion can change depending on who is in charge. Most of the major religions begin with the assumption that there is a supernatural “God” who exists outside of us. The next assumption is that he, I mean, He, only speaks to certain, “chosen” men. (God doesn’t talk to women, I guess.) And this God reveals to that one man, the rules all the rest of us are supposed to live by.
Now, the man Mohammed said some very cool things, and gave a lot of good advice. And so I can easily understand how a person like you, who was born into that faith, would respect the cool things Mohammed said. I would expect you to do that.
I respected the good words of Jesus, and I still do. At this point, we are two equal men, following the advice of two great men who lived before us. If we could just stop right there, then we would never have cause to hurt each other.
But no, then some other men start a business called religion, and insist that God only speaks to them, and that God will perform miracles for you, if you just listen to the priest or the imam.
Now, remember, we both started out as two innocent men, following words of simple advice…..
Your Mohammed is a man, no better or worse than my Jesus. And then religion steps in and demands our obedience, and separates us into tribes. But you and I, being sensible men, know for a fact that there can’t be TWO all powerful Gods, there’s only room for one all powerful God. So now I have to fight you, because you were told your God and his prophet is better than mine.
Barnman — what a waste of life !!! If you just stop believing in magic, then all of this goes away.
I was a Christian for a long time. Arguing with Muslims and atheists and a dozen other Christian sects.
Then I quit.
I subtracted all the magic out of Christianity. No all-powerful God outside working miracles and speaking to a chosen few who charge me money to hear what He said…. And guess what, barnman, I’m not one bit different than I was before. Except that now, my god isn’t somewhere out there. He’s right here inside me.
Oh, and I don’t hate Muslims, anymore….Nice talking to you, kid. Al salam
Comment from Nomad
Time August 26, 2010 at 2:25 am
I was raised in a somewhat unusual household. My father was raised in Judaism, and my mother was raised in Christianity. We celebrated both holidays when I was a child, and I was told that I could pick any religion when I turned 18. We discussed the subjects, but neither of my parents were ever very religious. This upbringing gave me a unique perspective. I checked them all out to varying degrees. I came to a similar conclusion.
I looked at early medieval times England, where the KJV bible was born. Women couldn’t own property, and one farmer could kill another and take his land. They had no forensics and needed something more than the regional sheriff. Otherwise, people would just kill each other for land, and cast out the wife and kids, leaving beggars in the streets. They needed a way to control the masses with a big cop in the sky, and religion sprouted again. The need for this magical all seeing sheriff went back throughout time, and all religions.
I sincerely applaud and tip my hat to your honest look at this subject.
Comment from Richard
Time August 28, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Congratulations on opening your eyes and thank you for sharing this.
In the end, you have it right: they’re stories. Narratives drive our existence much more than we could ever believe so and the biggest stories are those of creation and life itself. They’re impressive and that’s their intent.
It’s definitely hard to go against the grain, but that’s how all of historical progress has taken foot, big and small. Critical thinking (redundant in a sense, thinking uncritically is not really thinking) is the foundation of modern society and the reason we live longer, happier and better lives than ever before. Despite any misconceptions about how modern society is morally bankrupt, the appeal to reason of the Enlightenment has brought us closer to paradise than any belief.
Don’t stop at religion. The world is full of narratives, told by people who slant them for their benefit.
Comment from phonyfeminazi
Time August 30, 2010 at 6:15 pm
I want to express my opinion on the issue of atheism….look at the wonderful champions of justice, equality, tolerance, acceptance, all atheists, and they are:
Stalin, Mao, Castro, Chavez, Genghis Kahn, Attila. Gotta love ‘em, right “Free”? Realizing that some of them belong to history, so do some of the evils created by Christians.
The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam is still mired in the 8th century, and Christianity has evolved.
Pingback from The bright side of Islamophobia « Atheist Etiquette
Time September 2, 2010 at 6:01 pm
[...] Mosque” debate (about the non-mosque that’s not at Ground Zero) and decides to take a hard look at Islam, to show that it’s the whole religion, not just the nutty extremist wing, that is rotten to [...]
Comment from n0t-5hure
Time August 24, 2010 at 12:26 pm
it took a lot of courage to apply the same standard to your own views as you applied to others.